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Public Meeting - Saturday November 28th @ 6pm EST (open at 1pm)Am calling an open meeting on 11-28-09. It's been too long! Resources for the MeetingWe are currently using skype and a shared google docs folder.
You can open the documents we are working on today by clicking here
As last time, I will make myself available (as will Ms. Jolly) around 1pm via voice and text communication. Deliberation for meeting points should be had at THESE TIMES in order to facilliate a quick and to the point voting of the points previously brought up. These items will, after clarification and initial vote, be voted on for final ratification during a meeting that will be held later. The scheduling for this as yet unknown meeting will be decided at this meeting.
HEY! KIDS!This meeting is mainly to elaborate on the following topics and vote if they are ready for actually going forward on them, and for information swapping. IT IS NOT THE END OF THE WORLD. WE SHOULD BE HAVING THESE MEETINGS EVERY WEEK NO MATTER WHAT ANYWAY. TAKE A DEEP BREATH.
We will be covering:
The status of previously passed things. Endorsement Policies and Approaching Green Parties for Candidate Endosements Creating a geocentric pirate community outpost in Braddock PA Records and the Records office We need more forums Channel6 and the freenode room Founding an ACTA task force State Parties that are movin' and shakin' - NY, OK (others?) and printing donations We will also be looking for nominations to fill some of our administration positions.
So be there or be square, pirates! Where is there you ask? Here! We will be meeting through the website all day as we work to finalize the wording and intention of discussion topics for the meeting. Then we will blow through those topics and choose which ones are good enough for final vote in a few weeks! I really hope that one or two things pass through, and I'm sure we will all have a few good ideas pass through our heads about ways to volunteer and help out! Make an account, and log in when you are ready!
Nothing finalized is going through so don't sweat if you don't make it, but I for one really need to talk with the pirate community about what the next few months plan should be. The new website should be partially migrated by the meeting too! Remember, learning CiviCRM is very important.. and we should have the ability to spawn state and city groups very very soon!
Have a great turkey day and hopefully we'll speak again more weekly again like we used to. The Canadians are beating our ASSES at radio shows now :(
Arrrrrrrr
(We should do a 'meeting recap' radio spot after the meeting or sometime during it)
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Topic Proposal: The Tour, recap and reflection
I feel that since the tour is over, and this is the first meeting after it, that is should be discussed, the impact it has made to the membership discussed, and the overall value of it. Lessons learnt etc.
topic proposal: Meeting structure
in the upcoming meeting I would like to address an issue. it is somewhat of an expansion of Records and the Records office but is something of it's own point.
it appears to me that the manner in which meetings are currently conducted are not done in a manner that is satisfactory to several of our members. to address this issue I have proposed a restructuring or rather restating of how meetings should run. I have posted it here
to summarize:
this is to reduce the cluster F*** of IRC chatter that is currently present. chaff is not transparency. IRC logs suck, threaded discussion is where it's at!
I beleive this is how ryan intended for meetings to go, but this is not how they have gone. so here it is out in the open. I am willing to accept questions and comments.
Not a fan of Forums
I think that using Forums just leaves everything wide open to manipulation by whoever has administrative access to the forums. It makes it very easy to just delete posts that administrators don't agree with, and only keep posts that agree with your message.
I am in no way trying to imply that this is something that would be done by anybody in charge, but I am just stating that this is a very easy thing to do. IRC has log issues as well. But I can always keep my own logs, even if just using simple copy and paste into a text document every 10 minutes. I just feel that IRC makes the whole process more accountable.
"discussion of each topic
"discussion of each topic takes place in said forum's thread (not in the IRC)"
There is a problem with this. With IRC, we can have a fast, and complex discussion easily. Once somethign is said, all participants see it. Things said, can not be unsaid.
With a forum system like this, comments can (and have) gone missing, and out of the public view. Comments such as all those made previously, before this new site design. They are gone, they are missing. This is unacceptable.
The same can be said for IRC
The same can be said for IRC logs. There are no records of any meetings that took place prior to the current administration, to my knowledge. All links on the IRC logs section of the wiki are to non-existent pages,excluding the recently added log from the meeting in September. As a former party administrator, I'd submit the question to you as to where the logs from your time in office are located. If I have simply overlooked them, please be sure to let me know where they can be found, so I may update the records.
All that this shows is that any system for recording and maintaining information is faliable; a problem many people, not just those in this, or other political parties, have dealt with.
Please, any suggestions on how to better this process are welcome. Remember, all members of the party have right to their opinion on how these things are handled, and as such, a concensus should be reached. Feel free to open up debate on how best this process can be handled.
Logs from my time in office
Logs from my time in office as Administrator (July 07-September 08) were on the Wiki. If they are no longer on there, it is recent. I have a complete set of logs from that time on an old hard drive, and I will attempt to recover the raw logs within a week.
The wiki, at some point, blew
The wiki, at some point, blew up, or something....
Much of the data was lost, I believe. I think Glenn and Haplo were working on the migration from old to new.
The logs aren't there now, and it'd be great to have those to post up again!
Thanks!
IRS Situation Redux
Just got off a very long and nerve wracking call with the IRS. Seems we got some stuff late but nothing that can't be filed in the next few weeks. No fines, no fees. Apparently there is another form i've never heard of that isn't due till March. The 990 might not even be late, as our schedule could very well be from 6-9. An IRS agent is going to call me back in about a week to clairify and go into more detail with me. We need to make a real calendar of filing requirements for any future person who is going to be responsible for this stuff.
Thank goodness!
It really is about time for a CPA / Lawyer team though. Luckily we spend nothing and our donations are non-existant now, or maybe there would have been trouble. Doubt it, but still.
Will update the page later as I find out more.
I'm sure everyone is super happy that there is nothing critically bad going down!
Due to the tone of recent
Due to the tone of recent correspondence between members of the party, I would like to remind everyone that there is a provision in our constitution that states:
"All members of the Pirate Party are welcome to participate at all times during any meeting. However, members may be ejected from the meeting for continuous, irrelevant, disruptive and counterproductive behavior. Members are entitled to at least two warnings."
I will be taking it upon myself to oversee the proceedings of the meeting this Saturday, to ensure that the tone is kept productive and positive.
Any issues with this system are issues with the constitution, and should be addressed as such. Inappropriate behavior will not be tolerated.
Thank you.
Forums vs Meetings
I was about to warn you that folks are gonna intentionally take this outta context to say that you where tellin' folks to shut up on the forum, but it already happened. Way to go guys! It's like a WoW guild in here all the sudden.
ok..
There are 4 points needed for such an ejection.
1) Continuous
2) Irrelevant
3) Disruptive, and
4) Counterproductive
Of these, all of my comments are relevant, thus your case can't be made.
The same can NOT be said of Braddock, Pa (as both irrelevant and counterproductive to the jobs you and Ryan were elected to) It could also be said that THIS post, by Ryan, meets all but the first.
Oh, and if you want to get into the rules, then there's THIS
"The Records Officer, who may also be called the Recorder or Records Administrator [that's you!], shall oversee all matters involving the official records of the Pirate Party of the United States, including (but not limited to) the maintenance of both paper and electronic archives. The Recorder shall also be responsible for the recording of meeting minutes and publication thereof."
I've STILL yet to see any meeting minutes published for the last meeting.
As per the section you posted
All meetings must be recorded. It is the duty of the Records Administrator to provide for such recording, and for the publicity required in accordance with the law and de facto standard.
There's a phrase about glass houses and stones. You might want to remember, before you start quoting the party Constitution at anyone, that you're not in violation of the EXACT same Section.
Ejection
All due respect, but that applies only when a meeting has conveined with a quorum. We are free to discuss, weather positively or negatively, the aspects of the venue, etc.
Far be it from me to tell you not to do your job, but don't tell your constituents and potential meeting-goers to shut up. It's rude.
I thought what I said was
I thought what I said was pretty clear, unfortunately, it seems that was not so.
I have made no comment regarding ejecting people due to forum comments. It was just a reminder that if there are problems during this, or any meeting, those who choose to behave in a less than respectful way will not be allowed to do so in said meeting.
Obviously, that goes for me, for Ryan, and for anyone else. No special treatment will be given to anyone, and I've told no one to "shut-up."
I welcome all productive, insightful comments, and concerns.
Don't bother
They are both pretending to miss minor points and are making logical fallacies on purpose. Just let it go, it's just trolling and it's containable if we ignore it.
What they are doing is putting in an order for a slashdot style system and a viewing threshold. I'd LOVE to open some comments up to the public (the comments are not visible when logged out) but the unprofessionalism is pretty rank and it'd be best if we didn't...
maybe some time soon though!
"I'd LOVE to open some
"I'd LOVE to open some comments up to the public (the comments are not visible when logged out) but the unprofessionalism is pretty rank and it'd be best if we didn't..."
That would be unprofessionalism such as
"
Ok I give.
No YOU are a big doody face.
(adding: content for user profiles to discussion list even though we aren't ready)
Would it??
Audio Plan
Alright, I like voice. Everyone has access to some kind of voice. Voice is good.
Here is my current voice hardware pile.
3 laptops
8 1/8'' audio cables
2 htc telephones (1/8'' adaptors)
I plan to chain this all together to create a bridge between skype callers, users on the telephone confrence call, and any other suggested system (suggest away) and record them all in real time. I also hope to find something i can embed into the meeting page so that users can listen in who are just on the site.
When the pirate party ran the FM radio experiment confrence call thingy in the Georgia Burning Man meetup it looked like this:
So...
This is what you were doing instead of what you were SUPPOSED to be doing?
What you were supposed to be doing was going aroudn the country, meeting people and trying to form state parties, get support. Instead you're going to art conferences, and not working to move the agenda, or position of the party forward, but playing with FM radios and construction.
Also, I fail to see how a clear and accurate set of logs for a meeting held in this manner can be kept (and we're still waiting for the minutes/logs of the LAST meeting)
to clarify
it was Justin and I that did the construction.
how is talking one on one with more than 300 people and asking them if they'd like to get involved with the Pirate party not "meeting people" and "getting support"?
if by playing with FM radios, you mean deploying experimental networks to gather statements from members of a crowd, resynndcate them, and host a call in segment with nothing more than a couple of ghetto ass computers, than yes, we played with FM radios.
I fail to see how you can fail at thinking of hitting the Record button. also, there's a thing called transcripting, interns do it.
"how is talking one on one
"how is talking one on one with more than 300 people and asking them if they'd like to get involved with the Pirate party not "meeting people" and "getting support"?"
When you choose to spend the time with those 300 apolitical people, instead of going to a nearby event with 25,000 potential supports. When you choose to do something that you think is cool, over what is best for the party. That is how.
"I fail to see how you can fail at thinking of hitting the Record button. also, there's a thing called transcripting, interns do it. "
Well, i've seen no transcripts. I've also seen no meetings logs, or even records of the trip. This was the job of Bethany. Her primary role. It has not been done.
Yeah!
How dare he not go down the same route as every other fringe political group that's utterly failed to get anywhere or do anything!
Originality? Trying new things? It's disgusting, that's all I can say.
Sir, If you have an issue
Sir,
If you have an issue with the recording of meetings, if you could please address that in the appropriate direction (namely, me, the Records Officer), it would be much appreciated.
Thank you.
An official request for the
An official request for the meeting logs, as required in the constitution, has been sent to you. As has an official request for the records of the tour (as it was conducted in the party name, records were required to be kept). Since these are required to be kept by you, you should have no problems in providing them prior to the meeting on Saturday.
One of the core philosophies of the party is TRANSPARENCY and ACCOUNTABILITY after all. That is why the records officer is a board position, and the publication of the records is the core function of said person, and why publishing the records of meetings is mentioned in two seperate sections of the constitution.
yay!
hot diggity damn sir, we're going to use a web embedded stream for a conference call that works for anyone with a phone, skype or any form of voice chat? that sounds like a plan. what are we going to do for our text based atendees? is our freenode up and running?
also to confirm, that's 1PM EST right? gotta account for everyone's timezones.
Embedded
I'd rather just keep the embedded part as a monitor, like a little embedded tool to listen in to the voice chat. We might be able to do two way from the site.....
so...
you think just an embedded player for a shoutcast maybe?
dunno what to use
Some god awful web2.0 service or another I assume. We still have very little in the way of infrastructure.
Also,
What is this IRS situation you speak of? You should elaborate to the public.
Dunno for sure
I know we have a late 990-EZ form from what you emailed me.
Bethany just yelled "Hey do you know anything about the IRS fining us for an address thing?" from the other room, and I said "What? No I don't think so." and she said "That was in the big ass thing Andrew posted on the site" and I said "Oh god I haven't read that, does he know something about something?" And she said "Probably" and I said "Well hell, lets make a page for it and add it to the agenda".
Now I'm making the page.
So, you don't know about any
So, you don't know about any IRS thing?
I've been telling you about it for a week. Glenn's emailed you about it for a month. You had no clue that our public documentation needed changing after Glenn stepped down? Are you lazy, ignorant, or just plain incompetent, or a combination of the 3?
Maybe if you spent time doing what you're supposed to, rather than trying to ingratiate yourself with groups you want to be part of and using the party name as an 'in', you'd know more about the appropriate paperwork.
While we're at it.
Is the link for the "Braddock Project" 404ing for anyone else?
fixed
ah ha!
WHY THIS WEEK WHY NOW?!?!?!?!
Because I'm the first person to ask for one since the last one, which i asked for.
You couldn't have possibly
You couldn't have possibly scheduled at all? Looked at a calendar, considered upcoming holidays? No deliberation, just jumping in the deep end without looking to see if the pool has other people nearby?
Making meetings happen on a consistent basis is one thing, but just spasming about is quite another. Tentatively schedule a meeting with a suggested target date, not declare a meeting on a date with the option for deliberation.
Meeting
I, personally, was unaware that Thanksgiving is this week until yesterday, but I suppose that's probably just me. We're asking for an hour of time on Saturday.
Also, will those who take issue with the date not have internet access?
Second, the method of having a meeting to discuss the future voting on issues at another meeting is something that was done previously, at the behest of other individuals, and is being continued as such.
Also, I would like to submit that we vote on adding a "Right to Internet" platform, as discussed here.
I will be AFK all day
I will be AFK all day
That misses the point
Despite your efforts, that still misses the point. People will be unavailable for a major part of the day for various reasons. Personally, I'll be miles away from my keyboard - others will be with family.
Roll the die, try again, and pick another date.
Grrr, I will again be
Grrr, I will again be unavailable. I work Saturdays. I will have access to the Internet, but will only safely be able to use email. Anything else and I could get in trouble.
Can we have the vote take place over a 24 hour period?
New Site
The new site will let us run secure ballots for topics in threaded discussions. That will be great. If you have things to add to the discussions why wait for the meeting, do it now!
Polls
Poll system enabled. Blocks votes from same IP address, really not very secure. We could use it for casual stuff though, which is what the meeting is really.
Problem unsolved
That would be great - if the structure demanded such a thing.
From the looks of it, this meeting is mostly for discussion, not a vote. In fact, this is mostly just a warning for people to read over topics, barely an excuse to hold a meeting.
I'm looking forward to the new site and it's features. Too bad it won't be implemented and rolled out by the time the meeting comes around.
Will do, thank you
Will do, thank you
Urgh.
First and foremost: the date is oh so wrong. It's Thanksgiving weekend - not many people will be around. I can personally attest that I will be working. I say we push it back a week, that way people will have returned back to their normal life cycle, and failing that, make this meeting tentative until we can all compromise.
Second: the method by which you're trying to push for fundamental changes is agreeable, sure, but strange. Way too much red tape: when people vote, they want simplicity; no ambiguity and no reason to vote on it first and the vote on it again to ratify it.
Third: Where is the meeting to be accessed from? Saying where you're available from does not dictate where everyone will be meeting and have federation across those protocols.
Be there...
Be where, exactly? You say when (chose a shitty time; Thanksgiving weekend, but that aside...), and that the meeting needs to be done then to facilitate voting, but you haven't said where.
Good question
I'll have the irc, skype, forum software, chat, etc all open so I'd say 'be logged into the internet' at the very least. Go ahead and put it out on the alpha users list and see what comes back, Haplo.
As for shitty time, well, every time is time for feedback and suggestions.
Suggestion
Wasn't the alpha list closed? IIRC the resolution to close it passed. Also, I don't know how to "put it out" on the list; I'm not even sure I have permissions for that.
Channel6 says an alpha mailing list email has been sent out already, and the meeting time was 6PM. On the forum post you say it's 1PM. Which is it?
As for feedback and suggestions, I would recommend pushing the meeting back a week; you should know better than to call a meeting only a week in advance and schedule it for Thanksgiving weekend, one of the biggest holidays of the year.
Mistaken
You are very mistaken.
Mistaken about the alpha list
Mistaken about the alpha list closing? First of all, what is this alpha-list? There's no mention of it on the site. Secondly, at the meeting, it was apparantly 'passed' that the list would be closed, within 31 days. that means it closed a month ago. I say "apparantly" because we still don't have the logs from that meeting, despite Bethany having had a month to post them before her laptop was stolen, and a month since then to obtain access to her backup copy.
This is not working to the goals of openess and transparancy that are the cornerstones of the party. Nor is it applying the requirement of accountability that is demanded of all officers.
I think the only ones
I think the only ones 'mistaken' were those that elected you into office.
What is this alpha list? I've check the site, no details can be found, except some proposal to close it. Don't know how that went, since if a meeting happened, I can't find any record of it.
It might even help if you gave out your email, IM and skype account names - we can't contact you on them if we don't know about them.
Ok I give.
No YOU are a big doody face.
(adding: content for user profiles to discussion list even though we aren't ready)